Panasonic SD256 Bread Maker Machine
The bread has suddenly stopped rising
If you've found this page as a result of searching 'Panasonic Bread Machine bread not rising' keep reading to find out why
If you've found this page as a result of searching 'Panasonic Bread Machine bread not rising' keep reading to find out why
We have 2 of these Panasonic Bread making machines, at 2 different properties. Since getting the first one at Christmas 2010 We've completely stopped buying bread from the shops.
The bread this machine bakes is excellent. That is, until about a month ago when the Granary bread suddenly stopped rising.
We thought the bread machine must have broken, but we really hoped it hadn't.
I looked online, and one bread making forum suggested the Panasonic machine may not be heating up during the proving cycle. Mmm. That would be a shame. This machine is 18 months old and outside the warranty.
So we decided to try all the troubleshooting tips from the Panasonic instruction manual - one by one, adding less water to the mix, different brand of yeast, and longer baking times, but still the bread came out flat, time after time.
The last tip in Panasonic's troublshooting guide suggested poor quality flour could be the culprit for a flat loaf. So we baked another loaf using some old Sainsbury's wholemeal flour.
Success!
So the Panasonic bread machine appeared to be working - but not the Hovis Granary flour.
So I decided to find out if the Hovis Granary flour we'd used week in, week out for almost 2 years could suddenly have changed in some way.
Hovis Granary flour is made by Premier Foods. They have a helpline number printed on the bag 0845 200 0040, so I called it (actually I used saynoto0870 to find a freephone number instead of the number on the bag - freephone 0800 0327111).
Premier Foods said they would send me a padded envelope so I could send them a sample of the flour for testing, and if it was proven to be at fault they would send me a refund for the 9 bags.
A week later - a few more flat loaves later - and still nothing had arrived from Hovis, so I phoned again. This time I was greeted with a recording - the helpline is open Monday to Friday - of course I was phoning on a Saturday. Meanwhile we've still got 9 bags of this Hovis Granary flour hanging around...
Sainsbury's more help than Hovis!
So on the off-chance they could help instead, I phoned Sainsbury's care line (0800 636282) to see if I could return the flour to a Sainsbury's store without a receipt. Perhaps they could send it back to Premier Foods?
Megan at Sainsbury's, who I spoke to, asked for the bar code of the product and some other details, and then said she was very sorry to hear about the problem and would send me a £15 gift card to cover the cost of the flour (yes I was very surprised too, but that's Sainsbury's service for you).
Megan at Sainsbury's, who I spoke to, asked for the bar code of the product and some other details, and then said she was very sorry to hear about the problem and would send me a £15 gift card to cover the cost of the flour (yes I was very surprised too, but that's Sainsbury's service for you).
But that's not the end of this story, because I still don't know what's not working - the flour or the breadmaker?
At the weekend we were at the other property, where the other Panasonic bread machine lives. So we baked another loaf using some Hovis flour we had lying around, and this time the loaf rose beautifully - it worked!
Which unfortunately was more than the Sainsbury's gift card did. It turned out to have zero credit when I tried to use it in store. When I phoned Sainsbury's with the reference on the letter and the gift card they saw the problem immediately - it hadn't been loaded with any credit - and they said they were very sorry and would send me a new gift card with £20! which arrived the very next day.
So then I began to wonder if perhaps the Panasonic bread machine was the real cause of the problem, not the Hovis flour.
On Tuesday I phoned Panasonic 0844 844 3899* (but not using that number but using www.saynoto0870 to find number which wouldn't cost 10p a minute - and again the website came up trumps with *01344 862444).
Panasonic have outsourced their customer queries to Romania, where I was met with a stony Eastern European unhelpfulness. 'Your machine is 18 months old and out of warranty. Panasonic may provide some assistance if you take it to our service agent in Hayes, West London for a report'. 'How much will that cost?' I ask. The Romanian operator cannot tell me, they do not have that information.
Panasonic have outsourced their customer queries to Romania, where I was met with a stony Eastern European unhelpfulness. 'Your machine is 18 months old and out of warranty. Panasonic may provide some assistance if you take it to our service agent in Hayes, West London for a report'. 'How much will that cost?' I ask. The Romanian operator cannot tell me, they do not have that information.
This is the West London service agent for the mighty Japanese global electronics giant Panasonic...
Kings Electronics (just next door to the closed Kebab shop) in Hayes. No I didn't go there, I phoned them, and actually they were surprisingly helpful.
It costs £24 for the service agent to take a look, and then Panasonic might pay for the spare parts if it can be fixed, and I would pay for the labour. 'How much is a new bread machine?' the man asks me - '£99 in John Lewis' I tell him. 'Well then...', he said, rather tellingly.
Then a thought occurred to him. 'Did I speak to the cookery department at Panasonic?'. No, just the helpline in Romania. I must speak to the cookery line. 'They know all about the machine, and things to try'. Then he gave me the direct line for the cookery department - in the manner of a scorcerer handing down a precious spell to a young apprentice.
Then a thought occurred to him. 'Did I speak to the cookery department at Panasonic?'. No, just the helpline in Romania. I must speak to the cookery line. 'They know all about the machine, and things to try'. Then he gave me the direct line for the cookery department - in the manner of a scorcerer handing down a precious spell to a young apprentice.
Panasonic's cookery department is in the UK - 01344 862108 ( but it closes at 12 noon, so I had to wait until today). But when I did phone, Helen knew all about the problems I was having with my bread machine. 'It's even been in the news!' she said. What major news story have I missed about the Panasonic SD256 I wondered?
Apparently there's virtually nothing that can go wrong with the Panasonic SD256 Bread machine - it either bakes or it breaks! They go on for years (yes that's what all the online forums say too). If the machine mixes and bakes that's all it does, nothing in-between.
Helen went on to explain the reason my Granary bread won't rise is the poor quality of the UK Wheat harvest.
There's not enough gluten in the flour.
Some bags will work, but most won't. The harvest has been terrible. I can try using a couple of spoons of lemon juice in the mix to strengthen the gluten strands, but otherwise I'll need industrial type bread improvers, which just aren't available to consumers. Hovis flour is the worst offender, they'd even heard on the grapevine Hovis had rejected some of their wheat crop. I said I'd also tried Allinson's country grains flour too, without any success. 'That's the second worst!' She exclaimed. She suggested I try Waitrose Organic, but she said it was just going to keep on getting worse, the harvest had been so bad - because of the weather.
There's not enough gluten in the flour.
Some bags will work, but most won't. The harvest has been terrible. I can try using a couple of spoons of lemon juice in the mix to strengthen the gluten strands, but otherwise I'll need industrial type bread improvers, which just aren't available to consumers. Hovis flour is the worst offender, they'd even heard on the grapevine Hovis had rejected some of their wheat crop. I said I'd also tried Allinson's country grains flour too, without any success. 'That's the second worst!' She exclaimed. She suggested I try Waitrose Organic, but she said it was just going to keep on getting worse, the harvest had been so bad - because of the weather.
Helen said the Panasonic cookery team have put some extra tips on their blog (www.theideaskitchen.co.uk). I suggested she tell the call centre in Romania about the problem with the flour. She said they all hoped the call centre wouldn't be in Romania much longer. I couldn't agree more, it must be costing Panasonic a lot of lost customers.
So finally after my long and frustrating investigation I decided Hovis should know it's probably their flour, not the Panasonic bread maker causing my flat loaves.
Hovis Granary Flour - They even boast
'Perfect for hand baking and Bread Machines'
I decide to give Hovis owner Premier Foods another try. The Same chap, David, answers the phone ('Are you the only person who works at Premier Foods?' I ask, 'It sometimes feels that way' he replies). He says he sent the sample bags out on 14th November. 'It must be the post'. I reassure him he probably isn't to blame, 'You probably don't post them yourself', 'no but I can see who does, he's just across the desk'. 'Have they had any other complaints about the Hovis Granary flour' I ask. 'All the calls are logged, but the testing is done upstairs'. I'm getting quite a sense of the internal layout of Hovis HQ by now...
Anyway while I wait for the chap sitting opposite David at Premier Foods to post the padded envelope (its coming Recorded Delivery this time) I thought I'd better get the ressult of my investigation up online in case your Granary bread has stopped rising too.
I'll let you know what Premier Foods say when they've tested my Hovis Granary flour.
I'll let you know what Premier Foods say when they've tested my Hovis Granary flour.
Panasonic's tips:
1. Try organic flour
2. Try adding 2 spoons of lemon juice to the mix to strengthen the gluten.
3. Use the 'Rapid Bake' setting (4 hours).
We have followed this advice with great results, the lemon juice especially seems to have a dramatic effect.
3. Use the 'Rapid Bake' setting (4 hours).
We have followed this advice with great results, the lemon juice especially seems to have a dramatic effect.
Bread making sure is sophisticated science. It took food technologists 6 years to perfect the Chorleywood process (named because it was invented at a research lab in Chorleywood) - the technique which made possible industrial scale bread production using cheaper, lower quality wheat.
It's taken me just 4 weeks to discover why my Granary bread won't rise. The answer seems to be the lower quality wheat.
Update: 31st January.
It took Premier Foods (the owners of Hovis) over 2 months to respond to my complaint about Hovis Granary flour. After I prompted them by phone earlier this week, a letter arrived today confirming that there was a problem with the 2 bags I sent them.
"It has been analysed by our quality control dept and was found to be not up to our usual high standard. This is due to the poor weather we have unfortunately experienced in Britain especially in the spring, summer and autumn before the harvest which has unfortunately affected this batch. Details of your complaint have been brought to the attention of the Quality Assurance Manager so that any necessary steps may be taken to prevent a recurrence. Please accept our apologies for the trouble and inconvenience you may have experienced. We enclose vouchers as a refund and to assist you in a future purchase'
Update: 31st January.
It took Premier Foods (the owners of Hovis) over 2 months to respond to my complaint about Hovis Granary flour. After I prompted them by phone earlier this week, a letter arrived today confirming that there was a problem with the 2 bags I sent them.
"It has been analysed by our quality control dept and was found to be not up to our usual high standard. This is due to the poor weather we have unfortunately experienced in Britain especially in the spring, summer and autumn before the harvest which has unfortunately affected this batch. Details of your complaint have been brought to the attention of the Quality Assurance Manager so that any necessary steps may be taken to prevent a recurrence. Please accept our apologies for the trouble and inconvenience you may have experienced. We enclose vouchers as a refund and to assist you in a future purchase'
£20 worth of enclosed vouchers which can be redeemed against future purchases of Premier Foods brands - including Hovis.
Given I had to phone Premier Foods 3 times, package up 2 of the 9 bags of Hovis flour, take the package to the post office and then wait 2 months for a reply, £20 doesn't seem an overly generous recognition for the 'trouble and inconvenience'. But fortunately I didn't go out and buy a brand new Panasonic bread machine as some Hovis users have done. Needless to say I've completely stopped buying Hovis Granary flour and do not intend to buy any more. I'm surprised Premier Foods has sent vouchers, but I expect the supermarkets will accept them. I remain sceptical Hovis will do (or have done anything) to improve the quality of the flour, given how many people seem to be having exactly the same problem. I think Hovis should remove the 'perfect for bread machines' claim from the front of their packaging, and consider including the tip about adding lemon juice to the mix. The more customers who complain (0208 495 8392) I expect the more likely they are to take some action.
Finally, you may be wondering how they test the flour? Premier didn't tell me this, but there is a scientific test called the 'Hagberg Falling Number' test for gluten quality in wheat. So Premier can test the product before it leaves the factory if they wish.
204 comments:
1 – 200 of 204 Newer› Newest»Thank you so very much - we have just discovered the same problem with Hovis Granary flour and our beloved SD 255. What a relief to have the answer :) will try adding the lemon juice to tonight's batch...
Genius! Thank you for finding this out - who would have thought lemon juice was the answer!
Brilliant, tried numerous combinations, extra yeast, new yeast, new flour,warm water,a second machine & all the time it just required 2 teaspoons of lemon juice & it worked really well. Thank you for a superb article.
Many thanks. I actually bought a new Panasonic machine last month as I thought my SD256 has broken. Never thought that it could be Hovis that was at fault. Will try the Lemon Juice later today and see how I get on.
Rodney
A big thank you. I too bought a new Panasonic machine thinking my old one had gone faulty. Delighted to find out that it was the Hovis flour. Was able to get a full refund from Sainsbury's when I took back 12kg of flour. Have now bought Canadian strong bread flour from Waitrose and both my machines are working perfectly.
Unfortunately I only came across this article today after weeks of frustration trying to establish the cause of my flat topped loaves. I too had experimented endlessly to identify the problem through a process of eleimination. In the end I bought a new panasonic breadmaker as I thought my trusty earlier model had given up the ghost. But the same problem occurred and rather late in the day I contacted Hovis (Premier Foods. They confirmed a poor batch (low gluten) and offered vouchers in compensation,but seem unprepared to be sympathetic on the issue of my unnecessary purchase of a second bread-maker. I await their response which apparently is being escalated. Thanks for the lemon juice tip - I'll give it a try.
You can also buy Canadian flour, which has a very high gluten content and is widely available incl from Waitrose/Ocado. We found this out after a few weeks of very disappointing loaves and trying lots of different fixes. Then we read about the poor quality and quantity of British wheat following the shockingly wet year. It's badly affected the gluten and professional bakers are buying in flour from other countries so pushing up the price of loaves. We're so pleased it is not the machine after all as we love its results and were worried. Seems we need to be worried instead about the British farming industry.
Thanks for this, we have had the same problem since the end of December with Hovis Granary Flour. Strong White; Wholemeal etc still working fine. Pleased that our trusty breadmaker is not to blame!
Wish I'd found this weeks ago as I've had exactly the same problem: thanks for all the write up on this. I sent a letter to Hovis with photos and full description, in the hope that I'd get their attention, but never received a reply. Congratulations on the progress you've made.
Thank you all for researching this & posting your results.
I am yet another Panasonic bread machine owner who has used Hovis Granary Flour without problems for many years but has been producing flat loaves for weeks.
Replacing half of the flour with white helped but switching brands (I used Waitrose malted plus 25% white which was perfect) made a the difference.
I now have some Canadian flour.
Brilliant blog. I am deeply into consumer issues -partly because there is SO much wrong with companies' customer care in the UK.
Not clear how to comment on this blog. Do you only write about your own 'ishoos' ?
Rosie
Rosie - thank you for your appreciative message. This story seems to have attracted a lot of interest!
Thank you so much, I've been having exactly the same problem in producing my granary loaves, have tried allsorts to try and rectify the problem, was starting to think it was something I was doing (although couldn't think what). This morning I turned to Google and found your blog via your Amazon post. I immediately fired the breadmaker up and I have today produced two lovely round topped loaves. Thank you for sharing your investigation, very good reading with a fantastic outcome.
After a couple of months of frustration with flat loaves with a variety of flours and yeasts. All produced the same flat loaves as per your picture at the top of your blog. Well what do you know two teaspoons of LEMON JUICE! and all is back to normal with light fluffy wholemeal loaves. Excellent tip this-- Thanks
Snap! Snap! I have 2 Panasonic breadmakers, one really old, one newer bought 2 years ago when I thought old one was giving up. I normally use the older one. About a month ago started having problems. I changed flour then tried newer machine- still problems! I am now doing another bake using Waitrose flour sourced from 'more than one country' Will keep you posted.
Thank you! I threw out yeast, changed yeast, did full length programme instead of rapid bake, stopped putting a handful of rye flour in (gives a good crust) - and still produced bricks. Marvellous blog, and congratulations on having an impact as well as entertaining and reassuring.
I purchased a Panasonic breadmaker in January and used Sainsburys Taste the difference seeded brown granary flour and it produced great loaves but one day when this brand had sold out at the local store I had to buy another brand, in this case Allinsons and the first time I tried to make a loaf I got the same problem as you and many others have described, a flatter loaf that had not risen very much at all. I thought that I had used an older dried yeast sachet but from what has been said it seems as if it might be the flour. I am waiting for a new stock of the Sainburys taste the difference seeded flour to come in as this gave me consistently great results.
Many many thanks for your help. I've had a run of poor quality loaves recently, and have been at my wits end trying to find out why. I've tried various combinations of ingredients, but your blog has pointed me in (hopefully) the right direction. I'll try the lemon juice on the next loaf, and also change the flour provider. But you have restored my faith in my Panasonic machine.
Many thanks for providing this information, especially about the lemon juice. I bought a Panasonic breadmaker last week and found a note in the box explaining the wheat situation.
It is such a pity about the harvest. I am determined to carry on using UK wheat. Don't give Hovis or British farmers a hard time. Let's hope this year is better!
I too have just bought a new Panasonic bread machine, never thought it would be the flour. Just grateful my machine was about 10 years old so am happy to have a newer model. On the bright side I am now able to make granary for hubby and white for son at the same time.
We have had the same trouble with Tesco brown flour - so we are trying the lemon trick tonight. Must be the same as adding vitamin C which I used to do for making bread by hand. So far Sainsbury's own multi grain mix works OK.
How will we know when it is back to normal and we can stop adding lemon juice.
Like everyone else posting comments, I've been tearing my hair out trying to find why my granary bread wouldn't rise (Hovis flour, of course!). I too bought a new breadmaker which made no difference. I'm off to try the lemon juice now. Thank you so much for such a clear, detailed, helpful and entertaining blog!
Bloody Good Show !
Sanity Saved
We can't blame Hovis for a bad harvest, but we can blame them for downright unhelpfulness and refusal to acknowledge the problem.
Thank You
Why does the loaf rise perfectly one day and the next with the same ingredients and method is it brick-like if it is just down to the flour? My 13mth old bread-maker was returned to Panasonic and the engineers report said it was not economic to repair and they would replace(under extended warranty). No explanation as to what the problem was and it came back so fast I now wonder if they didn't do any checks and just replaced for a quiet life! My replacement machine now 5 wkd old has now just produced a brick again. I am using Waitrose wholemeal flour not organic. Shall now go and try again using the lemon juice trick in hope - may then try to find some Canadian wholemeal - have only seen white so far.
Brilliant find and congratulations for spending so long pursuing this. I cant help thinking how lucky I am to have found an evangelist for such 1st world problems. I'd just eat the bricks.....
I have experienced the exact same problem with Allinsons flour, which is even worse than Hovis. Like you I went through a series of tests which produced perfect results with both French & Canadian flour. It seems clear that the bread flour milled from UK wheat is well below acceptable levels, and the processors are not coming clean about it. I am considering escalating this to the Consumers Association, and possibly Trading Standards. It is clear that Hovis and Allinsons are selling flour not fit for purpose.
I Had the same problem with granary flour. I solved it with flour/bread improver
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130520509382
I only use half to one scoops (the small one by Panasonic)
It works well with all flours, particularly those with low protein values
Wow you have saved us all so much time and effort. Thank you so much. We have had identical problems to you but just assumed it was the breadmaker.
I have also had problems with Allinsons flour and with Tesco flour. When I rang Allinsons, they suggested increasing the yeast by 50% and the juice of half an orange, so similar to the Panasonic advice. When I increased the yeast, the result was fine.
thank you so much!!
We had problems with Hovis and Allison bread flours. Added tbl sppon of lemnon juice to 300 gm Allison's premium strong wholemeal and 100 gm Allison's strong white bread flours.
Perfect!!
Given the bread is no longer perfect for bread-makers, are flour manufacturers advising purchasers?
Thanks, lemon juice did the trick - all well and good again. Also approached Allinson who initially took their sweet time to reply and then sent a box to return the flour. Funny though - I'm sure they know this issue but I'm guessing hope that you'll just go away and not bother them. Not good enough....
Thanks for superb write-up and especially the lemon juice tip, which I will try tomorrow using the old Allinsons flour, instead of my emergency purchase of different brand of wholemeal and seeded flours (which worked perfectly).
Wow! I was also just about to buy a new Panasonic, because of flat granery loaves made with Hovis (Both their Ready Mix and Flour have produced the same flat or sunken bricks for the last few months.
Thanks! I shall now try the lemon juice!
All these blogs should be sent to Hovis!
Goodness! I bought my new Panasonic about four weeks ago, the first I've ever had. I thought I would keep a record of what I had used and the result so I knew what was good and what wasn't. At first I used some bread mixes and the results were very good. Then I used a Hovis Granary bread mix and it was awful, flat top etc. I found it quite amusing as my husband delivers bread to supermarkets for Hovis in the South East! Then I had a couple of further failures from scratch and with mixes. I was beginning to think I had made a mistake in buying the machine! So pleased I came across this forum, it has put my mind at rest. Thank you every one!
Thank you for all this research, two teaspoons of lemon juice has made all the difference to the loaf we've made today - have used the Hovis granary flour for some years, but over last few months have had very poor results. Nice to know what the problem is and at least with the lemon juice solution, the flour is worth using again.
Thanks for this fine piece of work.
My panasonic bread machine is 4 years old, used once a week. Had no problems until the last few months. My Hovis granary bread has been turning out small and brick like! Tried everything, more yeast , less water, different make of yeast, new bags of flour - nothing seemed to work.
Was seriously thinking of buying new a machine!
Then I found these comments from other people having the same problem.
Thank you - hopefully you have saved me buying a new machine.
Will complain to Hovis about the quality of their flour.
Thank you, will rescue my machine from the junk heap now!!! After three months of changing the recipe with an odd, unrepeatable success, You have provided an answer. Was thinking of buying new and that would have have been a disaster.
Had the same problems as everyone else with Hovis mixes. Went to Sainsbury's in West Swindon last weekend and all Hovis flour products except yeast have disappeared from the shelves...
Fantastic blog and really nicely written.
You have saved yet another person who was about to buy a replacement machine - thanks very much!
If you have a favourite charity please post it and I'll send them a few quid on your behalf.
Yes noticed that all Hovis flour has disappeared from my local sainsburys as well.
At Last. The answer to what I had suspected. I always use 'Very Strong' bread flour in my Panasonic machine. It has always been perfect until about two weeks ago when I purchased more flour 'Allisons' from ASDA. Flat loaves! I could not understand why my recipe 50% White flour + 50% Wholemeal had failed. I'll have to give the 2 tablespoons of lemon juice a try. Thank you for saving my sanity.
Further to my entry above, I have now bought Canadian flour from Waitrose and hey presto! What a superb white loaf and I shall try a whole meal one today and l
Keep you posted....
Wo is me, I have just read all the previous comments and would like to share my problem with you all; I have had the 'brick loaf' problem for about a year and have spoken several times with the Panasonic cooking dept, and received the same advice 'low gluten flour! I have consulted with friends who have Panasonic breadmakers, who seem to have no problems; two weeks ago one of those local friends and I had a 'cook off' using Lidl Rivercote Sunflower seed 1 kg readymix, he had 500gms as I did and we both cooked Basic Rapid Large loaf with Medium crust, lo and behold I baked a 'brick' and his loaf was about 2 inches higher.
Today at my friends suggestion I baked an Azda white 500gm ready mixed on Rapid and once again got a 'brick' (my friends loaf was just perfect), I did peek at what was going on in the tin and noticed that initially the paddle was going round quite quickly but as the mix became a more solid dough each time the machine did a mix cycle the paddle hardly moved whilst the motor buzzed quite loudly. I suspect that despite Panasonic having told me several times to the contrary that my machine is the problem.
My machine is just three years old and has done little work in the last 12 months; I guess it is destined for the bin!
At last - some answers. I am also a Panasonic user with nightmare bricks! Hovis Granary/Wholemeal/White no good, similarly Allinson, Tesco, Waitrose Strong and even a batch of Dove I bought in desperation. I will check how my paddle works as in the latest comment just in case it is the machine. Lemon juice does help as you can see the loaves really tried to rise but didn't quite make it. Now I'm just going to use Canadian flour until our harvests improve. Thanks so much for your blog - I'll keep watching it.
Thank you so much for all your hard research. I had the same p;problem this year and could not figure out what was wrong. i tried the lemon juice - to great effect. We now have good loaves back!
Another big thanks for your investigation which has confirmed the cause of exactly the same problem. We too resorted to purchase of another machine only to find it too baked a brick this morning!
BUT, please don't blame the British Farming Industry - it is the weather and perhaps the flour millers for not letting people know that the wheat quality has been affected by last year's poor level of sunshine. This should be a temporary problem - assuming the sun eventually starts to shine again in the UK!
After reading this article I went to Sainsbury's and purchased two bags of their 'Carrs' bread flour. One White the second was Wholemeal. I use a 50/50 mix. It gave perfect loaves using the exact recipe that I have used for about eight years.
So I returned the remainder of the six bags of Allison's bread flour to my local ASDA with the reason that the flour was very poor quality and that I would like them to return it to their quality control dept. I said that I did not want a refund as I was now going to purchase all my baking stuff from Sainsbury's in future.
I contacted the customer service dept at ASDA. I told them about the 'poor quality flour from Allisons'. I asked that their buyer get in touch with the quality control dept at the supplier of the Allison's flour and find out why poor quality flour was being supplied to ASDA customers.
It's a good job I was not expecting anything earth shattering as I did not even get a grovelling apology! 'Customer Service'! This customer did not get any!
While I am buying my baking stuff at Sainsbury's I may as well do the rest of my weekly shop there as well!
Thank you!!
I have been baking perfect Hovis Granary loaves for over 2 years in my Panasonic bread machine. Then a couple of months ago, had flat top loaves just like your photo. I also tried changing everything apart from the flour! I too bought a new Panasonic bread maker as I thought it must be my machine, after all the use I had from it.
I now have 2 teaspoons of lemon juice in the mix, can't wait to see the result!
Panasonic have done well judging by all the people who have also bought new bread makers!!
I complained to Hovis and they said they would get back to me, which they haven't. I have started to buy Waitrose organic which has produced lovely bread and will continue to do so until I get a reply from hovis.
How i wish i had seen this page earlier, had a Panasonic SD250 for about 12 years and only had a couple of failures in all that time until January when we bought 4 bags of HOVIS GRANARY flour and the results were the same as the others, flat bread, thinking it was the bread maker not warming up to make the dough rise, and after 3 failures wife said we aught to get a new one, which we did, going for one with the raisen dispenser. First attempt a wholemeal seeded was super, used dough mixes for pizza and hot cross buns..........the we tried Granary and the same failure as before. Knowing now what has been said I will never ever buy Hovis flour again, they surely must have tested their flour before they put it on sale and as it's substandard for bread making I consider it a con. not so for Panasonic as we all seem to have bought the same machine or better from the same manufacturer, proving confidence in their product.
Thank you so much for all this information. I've been making bread happily in my Panasonic for a year until a few weeks ago when the result was flat bread. Changed the yeast etc. but now realise it must be the Hovis flour which I'd never used before. In the bin it goes...and back to the organic.
It's not just Panasonic machines! I recently changed my trusty Russell Hobbs for a Morphy Richards for 2 reasons, 1 a rubber foot had been lost of the old machine, 2 there was a half price offer on the manufactures website so I bought the one with a foldaway mixing paddle. After trying old and new recipes, changing yeast and flour, it wasn't quite right, heavy loaves that you could only eat while warm. I'd been making bread for about 14 years and was very careful in measuring ingredients, so this was a bit heartbreaking, especially when packets of Wrights bread mixes worked fine so I knew the machine was OK. When I stumbled across this site I immediately went on ebay and bought flour improver for £4.10 and this has made everything normal again. I was having problems with both white Allinsons and Hovis granary. The product works really, but when the British flour improves, I shall stop using it.
Along with other people here, thanks for restoring our confidence in making bread and not listening to the big boys helplines who say there is no problem with there products
Fantastic - hope Hovis is watching this space? Had same problem for last few months and though our machine had gone wrong. I've sent web page on to all my friends / family as know a number of people with bread machines, discussing failure to get our loaves not top of our conversation.
Thank you so much
I wish I'd seen this before I bought my wife a new Panasonic thinking the old one was finished - well, it is 10 years old!
Anyway, now she can make two different loaves at the same time if she wants to ...
Fantastic blog-this has helped me to to return to a nice shaped loaf- Thank You.
Well, wow! Great blog and lots of advice. I've never had a problem with the Hovis Granary not rising ..... I just can't find it in the shops anymore! . Have they stopped selling it I wonder? For all other breads I find the Canadian strong flour the best. Shame not to buy British but its not the same sadly. Can anybody recommend another brand/type instead of the Hovis Granary or tell me where I can get it as have tried all major supermarkets. :-).
Thank you for all your comments, I never imagined this story would attract so much interest!
I feel for everyone who bought a new Panasonic bread machine, becuase I was on the verge of doing that too.
Supermarkets seem to be very low on supplies of flour suitable for bread makers just now. My local Sainsburys was clearing Hovis Granary at 70p (but the shelf was bare).
Since switching to Doves Farm Organic Malthouse I've found it almost impossible to buy at Sainsburys or Waitrose - the shelves are always empty. So today I ordered a 25kg sack direct from the farm. by buying some yeast and a 1kg bag of Rye the order just tipped £30 so comes with free delivery, making 1kg around £1.15 - cheaper than buying from the supermarkets.
There's a link to Doves Farm here:
http://www.dovesfarm.co.uk/
Happy baking everyone!
Thank you for passing on the information about adding lemon juice to help bread rise. I have been experiencing problems like all of the above people and it has sorted it out a treat. Fantastic 😃
Really pleased when I found this blog in February after my Hovis Granary loaves ended up like yours.
Have been using other flours since with perfect results.
Haven't seen the Hovis Granary flour on the shelves in any supermarket for a while now. Hope it comes back on sale once it is back to normal as I really enjoyed the loaves made with it - prior to the bricks.
Just another thank you for posting this crucially useful info.
at last some sense,will try lemon juice.many many thanks
I have been having problems for about 6 months with white loaves - changed virtually everything & just borrowed another breadmaker with very similar problems. Getting Canadian flour & lemon tomorrow.
Many thanks for your help
Nick
I had same problems and used a small amount of vitamin c (ascorbic acid) in my flour mix and it works a treat. I use it in all my loaves now. The biggest problem is that Hovis granary flour is now impossible to get and we still love it. The poor wheat harvest obviously means it's not as good quality, but once that is rectified in the ways we now know, it tastes wonderful. Please Sainsburys and other supermarkets, stock this flour again. I'm sure the quality will improve and in the meantime we'll cope with it. Hovis, can you get your product back on our shelves?
Was just about to take my Panasonic sd 253 apart with a view of changing the element,when I read this article.will try lemon juice instead
Gosh, what a tale. I am having exactly the same problem using Waitrose Organic Malted Grain and Wholemeal flours and was beginning to despair of producing anything other than a housebrick. It has been going on for several bags of flour but not with their white bread flour. I will try the lemon juice trick. My machine is an old Panasonic so ~I presumed it was on its last legs.
Brilliant! I'll not replace the Allinsons now. Thank you!
My SD 251 and I have been together since they first came out on the market more than 10 years ago. We have lived all over the world together and it has given faithful service. I was gutted just recently when I started getting brick loaves...and I couldn't find anything on the market that I was happy to replace it with. Thank you so much, I tried the lemon juice last night, increased the yeast by 50%, and put it on a 4 hour bake cycle - and it rose like a bird! I'm hoping now that we will continue to have many more years together!
Like so many others I too bought a new machine when I found that nothing I could do would induce the granary bread to rise as normal. This is after five years of making totally successful loaves. Alas the new machine was no better and I had binned the old one! Thank you so much for persevering to find the answer.Two teaspoonfuls of lemon juice work like magic and I am happy again. Thankyou so much. I just wish that I had read your blog before buying a new machine. Panasonic must be delighted with the flour producers.
You're a genius! Thank you so much for persevering through thick and thin and foreign call centres to produce the answer. I'm using Berrymeal flour and tried various things, like new yeast, before coming across your blog. My first attempt with 2 teaspoonfuls of lemon juice was a partial success, so I doubled it to 4 teaspoonfuls to produce a perfect loaf. This was with the rapid wholemeal programme and possibly the much shorter time may have been why more lemon juice was required. Thank you again.
Thank you so much for this article, I've been trying every combination I can think of like so many others on this blog, it really needs national publicity maybe in the national papers. We always use Alinson flour but are getting very poor rising, strangely enough though I baked some rools using the dough setting and they came out fine so I was thinking our Panasonic was at fault. Again, many thanks...
Many thanks for all your hard work. I too like many before was on the verge of buying a new machine. I shall be trying your tips out shortly.
Sod it. Just ordered new Panasonic breadmaker ...... never mind, I at least now know to buy Canadian flour for the time being, don't want to desert british farmers, but neither do I want to mess about with lemon juice etc. I shall only forget to put it in sooner or later! And my daughter can have the old Panasonic. Well done and thank you for such extensive reporting.
We have ceased producing brick type loaves and are making good bread again, thanks to everyone for their efforts and advice.
Please be aware that Waitrose have changed their Canadian very strong flour to Canadian & very strong flour, the new flour has the same problem as the other flours ie. not rising. I have complained to Waitrose about the problem and am awaiting their reply
Many thanks for your investigation and solution of lemon juice. It really works brilliantly. The failed loaves were driving me crazy and I couldn't find the solution and was blaming the machine. Now I understand. Thank you.
Hi all, I was also having trouble with my Panasonic Breadmaker with whatever flour I used and was told there was nothing wrong with the machine. But I discovered that just by oiling the bread pan with olive oil it solved the problem and we have gone back to making lovely bread. I presume the bread pan gradually loses the non-stick properties from using whole grain flour.
Dear All - I am Deb the Bread of Wright's Flour mills and work with 64 different bread making machines - I run the help line in the afternoon and achieve some stunning results with various Panasonic machines in particular by using the 1 hour 55 minute prog - to save knocking the life out of the dough and to measure liquids in a pyrex jug. For more tips and a money off coupon if desired contact me at debbie@wrightsflour.co.uk - thanks.
It is now the end of May and we've just given up using Hovis Granary after similar problems because we found other bread-making flours worked fine. Having just found this tale (we thought the machine was at fault and have only just realised it was the flour) we are very angry that we had only recently bought the Hovis flour in Sainbsury's. Hovis obviously KNEW about these problems and have been keeping it quiet. We will NOT be buying any more of their flour - the company cannot be trusted.
I use 50-50 Waitrose organic strong white and Doves Farm organic spelt and was suddenly getting flat loaves. I was about to throw out the machine. Thank you! Shall follow your suggestions.
Thank you so much for investigating this problem. I can't believe you went to so much trouble. I'd have given up. I have been having the same problem with Allinson flour and was trying to find out if others were having the same problem. I will now go and try the lemon juice and in future buy Canadian or American flour.
I also bought a new Panasonic breadmaker, bought new flour and yeast, but still produced bricks instead of loaves of granary bread as I had when I thought the previous machine was broken. I knew about the lemon juice, but probably didn't use enough. My issue now is that the recipes for the new bread maker are different and I wonder if that is also to blame for poor results.
Thank you, thank you, thank you!
All your hard work and persistence has got to the bottom of the problem. I will now be adding two teaspoons of lemon juice to my loaves
Lesley
I've been having these problems all this last year, including trying the lemon juice and changing the flour to very very strong! Will now try oiling the breadpan as paddle has lost a bit of non-stick. I like Carr's but difficult to find and Canadian has all but disappeared from the stores. As others have discovered, rapid produces somewhst better results, baking from the dough recipe also better, so is it the machine's programmes after all? Ho hum, I'll keep trying and watching this fantastic blog.
My son in law is grows milling wheat and last year his crop was down graded to animal feed aqs a result of its low gluten content. All wheat is tested before purchase so the millers know what they are buying and adjust the ratios of low and high gluten wheats to what they judge to be acceptable standards. It seems that they got it wrong.I have been eating whoemeal 'bricks' since Christmas and have come to quite like the texture but will try the lemon juice tip as visitors think it a bit odd.
Thank you SO much for this long explanation - we have a Russell Hobbs/Prima breadmaker and had made perfect Granary loaves for years without even thinking about it - until last year when they went doughy and crumbly, falling apart when you tried to cut them. I used the trick for wholemeal - vitamin C - but it made no difference so I started ringing Hovis (sent off the samples and was told there was nothing wrong - but I bet they knew there was) searching online and experimenting with our Hovis Granary flour but got nowhere. I stuck it out because our B&B guests love it - so I have to apologise on the occasions that they have to stick it together with home made jam - once it is cooled it cuts and freezes beautifully for toast, but for the first 2 hours it is terrible.
I was so frustrated I was about to ring Hovis - and realised they had gone home - so thought I would have another search online - and found your blog !! - so much more helpful than Hovis Customer Service.
I will try the lemon juice trick tonight - thank you so much for taking all the trouble !!
I think you deserve a knighthood at least,have tried everything and have gone bald tearing my hair out.
Shame on you HOVIS and ALLINSON and others....for such poor so called "QUALITY CONTROL"
Googling it worked...thanks again for your excellent research and diligence.
I've started bread making in a panasonic machine after a long break. 1st loaves fine but then collapsed tops using same flour.
Interestingly it appeared to correspond with the hot weather (our kitchen is really hot!).
Our old machine used to give huge loaves in the summer and much smaller ones in the winter.
I have been making bread in the Bread Maker every other day for years and could not understand why the loaves were suddenly coming out like bricks. I searched Google and found this excellent post. I tried the Lemon Juice from a fresh Lemon and hey presto a perfect loaf so got my wife to get some Jif lemon juice which worked equally as well, when that ran out I tried some orange juice and still I got a perfect loaf, so to save going out and buying lemon juice I just use 2 teaspoons or as I weigh everything as I put it in, 8 gms of juice.
My Panasonic SD-ZB2502 produced perfect results for several months then suddenly started producing house bricks in September last year when using any type of flour other than very strong white. I've tried everything to resolve the problem apart from buying a new machine. Stopped trying over the winter and stayed with different varieties of strong white flour, and a variety of different seeds, which always gave good results. Tried again over the weekend with Hovis Granary Mix which was on sale, on offer in the local ASDA. Lo and behold, another house brick. Excellent blog and thanks for the tip about lemon juice which I'm just about to try.
We've also been through countless failed loaves over the last 12 months and tried the lemon juice but nothing worked and my wife wanted me to throw away the bread maker.
There was an earlier comment here about Wrights flour being good, so I tried that last night and it worked fine. All our problems were with Allinsons and Hovis Granary , though Tescos own flours started producing poor results as well.
Anon/Wallasey says I have two Panasonic breadmakers - really good machines. But I only use them to produce the dough knocked back and ready to bake. For this final stage I use commercial non stick tins in the oven. But I don't use Hovis flour. I do use Allinsons Very Strong variety which has not let me down so far - and the difference between "Strong" and "Very Strong" is quite noticeable in terms of rising, particularly with wholemeal. Also Lakeland sell a flour improver which is very good indeed but has a short shelf life - mind you it seems to work just as well when it has expired!
Best Wishes =
+
Thanks for the excellent write up. Just wanted to say that this problem seems to be with us again. However, my tale of woe is a little different because I mill my own flour. I am using Organic Wheat purchased from Doves Farm which says it includes imported wheat. Despite that, I have had a few months of poorly risen Wholemeal loaves in my Panasonic SD253. I have tried 'everything' and the only way I can get a well risen loaf is to mix some shop bought white or wholemeal flour which rather defeats the object of owning a Grain Mill.
having just bought a Panasonic I would agree with the poster above, it DOES seem to be with us again, hardly surprising considering the weather over the past year.
However there does appear to be some recognition of the problem in certain quarters ( albeit more expensive ones)
I noticed today that the packets of Wessex Mill's speciality flour I purchased to try out the new machine with have this statement on the back,
' we have milled this flour using wheat from Canadian and German wheat due to the poor UK harvest'
which would seem to indicate that the problem is indeed once again the flour.
Thank you very much for your post - after producing 3 very flat white loaves using my trusty Panasonic, I realised it may be due to the Allinson Strong White Flour that I have been using. I have emailed them hopefully they will reply. In the meantime, I shall try the lemon juice method. Many thanks again!
Does anyone know when the flour from this year's better wheat harvest will be in the shops? I don't want to keep using lemon juice if I don't need to but am afraid to leave it out! Tesco had lots of bags of Hovis Granary flour in at the week-end
Absolutely brilliant information! I'd nearly given up. Changing the flour did the trick! Thankyou
Thanks for your brilliant commentary about your research of this problem. We, like so many, had reached the conclusion that it must be a controller fault in our Panasonic bread maker. My wife was pressuring me to search for a low cost new bread maker rather than causes of the 'bread not rising' problem. We will try adding lemon juice to our present batch of flour and then leave comment on the result.
A wonderful public service! I won't repeat my experiences, but will raise some questions:
1. Should the flour manufacturers be selling their products as 'strong' when they they are sub-standard?
2. Should they and the retailers at least carry a warning?
3. Is there a trade descriptions issue?
I too had big problems poor rise and dense loaves. Adding 2tsp lemon juice initially did help but some flours were worse than others.
Then lately, it was nothing but poor loaves. I tried the strongest flour I could buy but no luck. Then I bought a new Panasonic SD2500 and instant brilliant loaves. It still needs the lemon and so there is still an issue with flour but there obviously was a problem with my own 3 yo machine.
With that machine, the paddle still moved but when I looked closely during a cycle, you could see that on occasion it just wasn't moving the dough sufficiently. It was an SD254 as I recall.
We have had a Panasonic SD-253 for some 15 years. The results are excellent, but after a time, about 4-5 years, the loaves fail to rise. This is because the Kneader mounting shaft unit wears out and needs replacing. We have done this twice, the last time a few weeks ago. The piece number is ADA12R132 and can be ordered directly from customer.care@panasonic.co.uk.
It costs about £39 but much cheaper than buying a new machine.
Thanks,
I'm not using a Panasonic machine but a Cookworks from Argos.
However, I am also currently using 'Hovis Strong White Bread Flour' & 'Hovis Strong Wholemeal Bread Flour'.
So obviously this is not just a Panasonic or even a bread-maker machine problem, but as discovered a problem with the flour.
I'm very new to this bread making business (14 days) and was beginning to think it was a waste of time as so far my few outcomes have all been fairly different and only half of one loaf was really successful, but today's attempt for just a basic turned out to be a real heavyweight brick.
Maybe the reason why all the people I know (not very many though) who swear by their machines have so much success is because most of them do not live or buy flour in the UK.
So thanks again and hopefully the Lemon Juice will do the trick.
oldfogy
I had my first poor loaf this year and thought the machine must be at fault until I read this article on Granary flour which I use though only in proportion of 1:4 with a cheap strong flour from Tesco. This bad loaf today was the result of thinking I would use more granary flour as I do like the look and taste of it. I am going back to using a little of the flour but I will also use lemon juice. Thank you.
Wheat free loves -it's not the flour that's the issue!
This feedback was very interesting but I use a variety of good quality flour from waitrose, sainburys and my local whole-food shop and repeatedly get this problem with all 3 of the panasonic bread-makers I have used. Given I ipay on average well over £2 a kilo for this flour i am getting fed up with throwing unproven bread away. When i have taken the bread out after kneading, proved it myself then baked it ( which i have to do in an oven of course ) it works, usually very well but this pretty much defeats the object of buying a bread maker for me. The bread-maker does not seem to be warm at all when i take it out just before the baking starts. I think its a fault with the panasonic bread-maker personally, three in a row a coincidence? I don't think so. Its a shame because when it has worked the bread has been the best home made spelt i have ever had, i bought it for that, despite the higher price compared with other makes, but i wont be investing in another panasonic. I will try the lemon juice can't see how it will improve what seems to be too low a temperature for proving.
Another grateful fan! This time for the very useful cookery dept. tel. no.. (For a different query...) I have had my 2500 since June this year. Am using locally milled stone ground organic whole meal flour, delicious - Stoate and sons, Cann Mills , near Shaftesbury, Dorset. First bag produced great loaves, although I have been adding half a vitamin C tablet crushed to powder each time, definitely recommended. Second bag - tried to rise but fell back! So tried mixing with 25% strong white - fine. Yesterday mixed half and half with Allinsons very strong whole meal, again, a good rise. This did give an interesting contrast between the flours, with the Allinsons looking almost like a mixture of white and some bran... Have just been speaking to one of the millers at Stoates, who explained that often mass produced flours are roller milled rather than stone ground, and it does end up more or less like white flour, with 'bran' added back...
They are now milling this years crop (look for expiry date May 14 or beyond) but were mixing in previously some from abroad to improve the gluten. I must have got a not so good batch second time around.
Happy baking all!
Super advice THANK YOU
If anyone knows the setting with PAIN COMPLET bread mixture for machines perhaps you can post a note here. The FRENCH instructions for panasonic have the settings in ENGLISH!!! so no good when reading a flour for machines made in France
I have had the brick loaf issue over the past year or two and having found this website I know use the Waitrose Canadian extra strong white flour and 1 table spoon of lemon juice.
If I use the extra large loaf setting with the correct ingredients (replacing a table spoon of water for lemon juice) I get a well formed loaf but it is near the large size loaf than extra large. Comparing it to the pictures on the web or the recipe manual is just depressing as it is about 60% of the size.
Any ideas what is happening?
Thanks
Darren
Thanks for this post. I purchased a Kenwood breadmaker in August and have yet to make a loaf that hasn't sunk. I've tried all of the troubleshooting tips that came with it (which doesn't include adding lemon juice)and have trawled the net for tips. I've used Hovis, Allinsons and Asda flour and packet mixes without success. It's been really disappointing, and expensive.
AT LAST an explanation for poor quality loaves. Have been deeply suspicious of UK flour since 'they' (suppliers, farmers etc.) said they could grow strong flour in the UK.We need a decent strong flour 365 days a year.Do Hovis use this flour in their bread??
Not chucking out the machine - trying lemon juice and finding Canadian flour somewhere.
Hi
We use a Panasonic sd256 and had the same problem with loaves suddenly not rising (after 3 years of use. - We use bread mixes from all the major super markets (no special mixes , Canadian etc). I followed the tip on lemon juice (thanks !)and found I needed about 2 tablespoons for a wholemeal mix and a little less for plain bread mix.
The only other time we had problems was with the mixing paddle that had worn and was moving around on the spindle a lot more than it should be . I fixed this temporarily with a small metal shim .(this was easier to see as the mix was not totally complete in the flat dense loaf)
I too have had the problem with loaves not rising as expected in my SD253 and having found this forum a few months back, I switched to Waitrose Very Strong Canadian White Flour. This made a great difference (although they never rose as high as originally) but this week, back to loaves not rising properly! Is Canadian flour now suffering from lower gluten content? What makes me wonder is that Waitrose had this flour on offer at a good discount and this has reminded me of buying Allinson's a few months back - also "on offer".
Thank you so much for all the posts and the information about the lemon juice. We've had problems with our Panasonic breadmaker all summer. We live in Spain and put the 'bricks' down to the heat....although our bread had been perfect in previous years. We used the machine in cooler places in the house but assumed the continuing issue was still the summer heat. We use imported UK flour such as Hovis and Allisons.
I decided to ask Dr Google and I found this very helpful blog.
We will try the lemon juice and once our supply of UK flour is finished we'll move on to Spanish flour and see what results we get.
Many thanks to the blogger for all the research....great work that solved the brick issue!!
Re comment on 21 November 2013 08:16
I made that comment. Having seen another post, I gave the SD253 a deep clean and have just baked the best rising loaf for several months (using the Waitrose Very Strong Canadian White Flour as before). Hope it continues with the next ones :-)
This is an update of my Post of 25th July. I have not had a duff loaf since then and I make a loaf every other day. My method is to place the Bread Pan on a set of Digital Scales, add 1 teaspoon of Doves yeast, zero the Scales add 450gms of Flour (sometimes I use Hovis Granary or a local mill Stoneground Flour or add a bit of White or a combination, it seems to make no difference as long as it is 450gms in total)I then Zero the Scales and add 8gms of Brown Sugar. Zero the Scales and add 6gms of Salt. Zero the Scales and add 20gms of Oil I use Rapeseed. Add 310ml of water straight out of the cold tap. Zero the Scale and add 8gms of Orange Juice I use Tesco but anything seems to work Orange or Lemon. I do this before I go to bed put the machine on a delay and next morning you wake up to a perfect loaf, well hopefully. It works for me. I hope this works for you I used to get very frustrated making bricks until I found this post.
I remember from doing a professional bakery course about 30ys ago that european wheat is nowhere like as strong as N American, but the EU made us support the CAP subsidised EU farms first... Even Sunblest had trouble making it work then.
Also the active ingredient in the lemon to relax the gluten the is he Vitamin C, a small pinch of Boots Vit C powder used to be used for home baking, but I think they they've stopped selling it. So the Orange juice will also do.
Di said my parents bought us a Panasonic SD-2500 for Xmas. Bought Sainsbury's white bread flour and had brilliant results. Started new bag of flour and got 2 heavier less risen loaves. My parents had similar problem with their older Panasonic and used 2 teaspoons lemon juice and the problem was solved. So I tried it tonight with the same bag of flour and the same sachet of yeast, just added 2 teaspoons of lemon juice and got a superb loaf risen as usual. So my advice is try the lemon juice first as its cheaper than all the phone calls to these helplines.
I have a B&B and always make bread in my Panasonic - 400g flour (usually 50/50)on the speedy bake (1hr 55mins). I have to make two loaves a day. I too started to suffer this problem, and although I heard about the lemon juice solution from Panasonic themselves, I decided to mix the flour/water/etc etc in a large mixing bowl before tipping into the basket of my Panasonic. Have not had a duff loaf since. Perfect results every time, using all types of flour, and it only takes a extra minute, two at the most.
Having had the same problem as everybody else with Hovis Granary Flour and lower gluten content, I have used two tsp of dough enhancer for 18 months with great success. Assuming that last year's wheat crop was better my last two loaves were made without the dough enhancer. They failed to rise correctly. Today I tried again with the enhancer and got a good loaf.
It is time that Hovis warned customers that the wheat crops are still sub-standard and additives are needed for successful breadmaking.
could someone let me know whther you add the juice at the end or to the yeast?
I add the Juice at the end, see my procedure at the 11th December text. I only now add 4 Grams with the same excellent result. Someone sggested a Flour Enhanser, why pay out for an Enhanser, it is just a waste of money, you dont need it.
i have the same problem,
thannks for this,
try to fix my trouble
Wow thank you! Had the exact same problem. I had given up making granary bread, I thought it was a problem with the breakmaker.
The white loaves came out fine but I was using Carrs or Waitrose which I assume is better flour.
I will try the lemon juice tip.
Have tried everything and just had another failure. I noticed that the paddle is a lot looser than it used to be so I thought I would buy a new pan and paddle, WOW it costs as much for the pan and paddle as it does for a complete new machine. with spares as costly as that I will be looking at different makes of bread machine but will also look to see how much the spares are first.
Leslie - if your paddle mixes the dough then it is working.
All the machine does is mix and bake. If it mixes and bakes, but your bread doesn't rise it is the ingredients at fault.
Experiment with your ingredients before buying costly parts which are most likely unnecessary.
I tried the lemon juice sggestion but still ended up with a brick
Thanks for this information, the granary brick bread problem seems to have got even worse lately, will try lemon juice next time.
Another thing I may try is to buy kibbled wheat and add it and some malt extract to strong white flour.
www.raspberryandchipotle.blogspot.com
Very interesting. I have a Panasonic machine anduse it when we are in the house in France. I too have made bricks recently which is very disappointing as I generally put in on to cook over night. It is always the question what is it like as I have had some good loaves nd some bad loaves. I am using flour from France and some from Belgium with the same results. I too will try and see if the lemon juice works. I too was going to get a new machine as mine is many years old. Fingers crossed for the lemon juice I guess I could use at vit c tablet?
And I thought it was only me and my machine!! I will try the lemon juice trick before I buy a new bread maker, but my problem is with a variety of Waitrose bread flours and not Hovis. It is also possible that the blade is not always functioning properly as I have had poor mixes when using the 70% wholemeal recipe. Thanks for your help, I'll kep my fingers crossed while the next loaf bakes.
And I thought it was only me and my machine!! I will try the lemon juice trick before I buy a new bread maker, but my problem is with a variety of Waitrose bread flours and not Hovis. It is also possible that the blade is not always functioning properly as I have had poor mixes when using the 70% wholemeal recipe. Thanks for your help, I'll keep my fingers crossed while the next loaf bakes and hope I don't have to go shopping for bread makers.
We should be looking at what caused the failure of the UK crop of wheat - think this is linked to chemtrails and the manipulation of weather by seeded rainclouds which is currently going on in specially chosen areas. Please, please everyone needs to research this more and wake up to the causes of our crop failures and flop harvests for the past five years.
There is a deliberate policy behind this: The big chemical companies want to buy up all our failing small farms, and Monsanto et al want to enforce GM crops on all of us so that we become unable to grow our own food.
I have been using Allinsons extra strong wholemeal flour in my Panasonic bread maker.
The past few weeks my loaves have always come
risen only on one side and not the other. I've tried adding a little extra water as indicated in the fault finding page,( based on the fact that it is extra strong flour). I've tried new flour, new yeast and still they are all the same. I will try the lemon juice to see if that helps but I think It may be down to the machine.
I, too, had the 'risen unevenly' problem. In my case it was end-to-end rather than side-to-side.
I'm new to bread making, as well as to bread making machines so my experience is, very much anecdotal and a little bit of personal experience - not trained or professional. I make it in a Panasonic 2502. For day to day use I prefer to use as much wholemeal as possible.
Everything else is according to the book. I've only been changing one variable (the flour) at a time.
I started out using 400g Hovis Strong W/M, but found that the bread came out low at one end despite having an excellent texture and a flavour to die for. The deformed shape is a nuisance for bread to, mainly, be used in a toaster.
I then tried 300g Hovis Strong W/M + 100g Allinson Strong White. That comes out nice and even. Excellent all round. Nice height for our toaster too.
The next step is to reduce salt as much as possible, though I'm not too worried about that as my salt intake has been hugely reduced since giving up the processed rubbish that comes in plastic bags. Also, much of the processed rubbish gets binned as, almost invariably, we find it covered in green mould before we've used it all. No chance of that now - it doesn't last long enough to go mouldy.
OH eats 'my' crusts - and always refused to eat 'processed rubbish' crusts, so a saving (of sorts) there too!
I live in Spain and bought an Andrew James machine some four weeks ago and have this problem with a variety of flours. The best results use flour from the local Spanish baker. I've tried both fresh yeast and dried yeast but all with same flat loaf result.
Tomorrow morning I'll get a fresh lemon off our tree and use some juice from that.
The lemon juice worked.
Perfect at last.
Thanks for this - old 255 machine that I've had for 10-12 yrs seemed to be giving up the ghost as the loaves were starting to come out flat - bought a new 2500 and have the same problem with all wholewheat loaves even when using Waitrose flour - any white loaves using Allinson Seed & Grain flour always works perfectly - thought it could be the yeast not lifting the heavier wholemeal flour as loaves had a flat / slightly sunken top.....now have several things to try 1)Lemon Juice 2) slightly less flour or 3) slightly less yeast (as the Which video says this can cause the top of the loaf to rise too quickly and then sink).....I'm gonna be eating a lot more bread next week!!!! Thanks again.
I tried adding 2 teaspoons of lemon juice and still had a brick. It would perhaps help if people actually tried the 'lemon juice trick' before posting.
My mom makes a lot of bread and it is delicious!. We usually toast it and put bread and honey on it. It is the best when she just made it that day. http://www.klostermanbakery.com/about/history.php
I had an older type Panasonic which made brilliant large loaves with whatever type of flour- until one day it decided it wouldn't any more and I just made bricks. I thought the machine was kaput so bought the more expensive stainless steel one - what a disaster! I haven't been able to make a decent loaf with this machine at all - have tried all flours, all yeasts and even bread mixes and still get flat topped bricks. Its turning out to be so expensive that I think I am just going to have to revert back to shop stuff...... I really thought the top of the range machine would produce an even better loaf than the old one, not the awful ones I get; I haven't had a decent loaf since I have had the machine and that's over 12 months now - I give up!
For years, my Panasonic bread maker produced excellent bread until quite suddenly the loaves became flat and heavy. Like most people who have commented here, I bought new flour, new yeast and tried less/more water. In the end I bought a new Panasonic machine - the stainless steel model. Disappointedly, it has made no difference. I have mostly used Allinson's Strong Bread Flour which is the only brand stocked in my usual store, a mid-sized Sainsbury.. I find it surprising that Allinson's (and other companies) are selling a product which they must surely know is not going to produce good bread. I am also surprised that stores such as Sainsbury continue to sell it.
I have made my own bread for years now and about two years ago I decided to treat myself to a bread-maker...I liked it so much I recently bought another and now have 2 Panasonic SB-ZB2502 machines and they have been marvellous.. I must admit to only using the machines to knead the bread simply because it takes all the hard work out of it and we like bread-cakes and loaves without holes in the bottom. However about three weeks ago the dough stopped rising properly. I tried different yeast and different flour but got the same result. I have even left it to rise for longer but somehow the dough just feels wrong (experienced bakers will know what I mean)...not springy or elastic and the bread-cakes still end up being rather...well... dense. I use both machines at the same time and get the same result in both so it can't be the machines. I will be trying the lemon juice trick and will post again next time I bake in a couple of days.
I have also noted the time frame of this thread which spans from the 12th of December 2012 to the 3rd of February 2015... that is over TWO YEARS. We had a good summer last year so what is the excuse this time?
Jaz - thanks for your comment. You are quite right, I wrote this post 2 years ago. Since I wrote it 30,000 people have found it, because they were also having trouble with their Panasonic bread machine (as evidenced by the many, many comments above).
It is safe to say it is the gluten content of the flour that is the cause of the problem (not the bread making machine) and the lemon juice acts as a 'bread improver' strengthening the gluten strands. Bread Improvers is what commercial bakers add to their mix, so us amateurs are just stealing a trick from the big boys.
Incidentally the price of flour has collapsed this year which is good news for shoppers and bad news for farmers and millers. We've been using the wholemeal flour from Lidl recently which is as cheap as 69p a kilo and works without the lemon juice. The Allinsons flour we continue to get poor results with and have stopped buying it. Hovis Granary flour has disappeared from the shelves.
In response to my comment on the 3rd of Feb. I am now posting the results of my latest batch of bread. I used Allinson's strong plain white flour and Allinson's easy bake yeast. (in the tin) I usually use Tesco's strong plain flour, it has been just as good until recently and then both seemed to be as bad as each other. Anyway to the result...I added two tsps of fresh lemon juice to the water, which I then added to the machine at the start of programme 16 (which is the dough setting) However, I did add an extra 1/2 tsp of yeast in a belt and braces approach. This seems to have done the trick and the bread has risen well and the bread cakes feel soft and light. They have a good texture and taste like they used too. Unfortunately I am unable to say wether it was the lemon juice, the yeast or a combination of both, but whatever it was... my bread is back. Needless to say I am very very happy! Thank you all.
Jaz - Really pleased to hear this worked for you. We switched from the Allison's yeast to Doves Farm Quick yeast (which Waitress sell). But you can experiment with yeast type and quantity now the bread is rising again. Bottled lemon juice also achieves the same result and is more cost effective.
I had similar problems. Tried changing quantities of all the key elements. Tried all the obvious brands of flour (expensive to cheap). The best one (which I'm still using successfully without lemon juice) is Lidl's.
Sad to say I have tried all the suggestions given on here, and even bought gluten to try and get my lovely well risen bread back. All to no avail, still getting 'bricks' :-(
Anon - Tried everything?
It is a very frustrating process - we all feel your pain. When you say everything, these are the key things -
1. Try several different brands of flour. Canadian strong white, or the Lidl wholemeal is working well.
2. Try different yeast - the Dove organic from Waitrose works.
3. Try adding lemon juice, the concentrated juice from a bottle is fine (and cheaper).
4. Use the quick-bake program.
Panasonic advise that if your machine mixes the ingredients and then bakes them it is working. That is all it does - it is a glorified mixer and mini oven.
Don't fall into the trap like some have of buying a new machine to discover you still get bricks!
Good luck, we're all rooting for you!
The Chief Executive
I have an SD254, it started making bricks. I tried less water, different flour, still bricks. I used exactly the same ingredients to make a loaf by hand, it worked. My friend gave me her SD253, I used exactly the same indgredients, it produced a beautiful loaf. I deduce from this that my SD254 is broken in some was.
"Panasonic advise that if your machine mixes the ingredients and then bakes them it is working." - well yes, up to a point, but I suspect that it is possible for it to be working and not working. As noted in my previous comment, my SD254 started making bricks, and my theory is that whatever regulates the heating cycle has broken. It therefore seems a bit facile for Panasonic to say 'if it mixes and bakes then it works'.
Hi,
reference my previous anonymous comment, yes I literally have tried everything...Even borrowed my daughter's none Panasonic breadmaker and still made a brick.
However I have now purchased a new item of Hovis Granary Bread Mix which only needs the addition of water and butter. Contents include yeast, gluten and flour treatment agents. Wish me luck!
A bread machine is controlled by electronics (microprocessor) it is no different than any other microprocessor controlled equipment you think it isn't working properly disconnect it from the mains supply for 5 to 10 mins then reconnect it,costs nothing to try : just saying :)
Problem solved, thought i had tried everything, but my mistake was to buy loads of tins of yeast (was on special offer) and store the yeast in a room that is always hot. Because the yeast is stored in a sealed tin (allinson) i didn't think this would be a problem,all the yeast had nearly a years use by date left on them but the hot room had made it go off. Bought some fresh yeast and now the bread rises like it used to, the instructions quite on the yeast quite clearly says store in a cool place and once opened keep it in the fridge: lesson learned :)
I think we may have a problem completely opposite to the non-rising brick!
We have a much-loved Panasonic SD 2501 and in the last couple of months each loaf has come out with the top crust raised and somewhat separating from the rest of the loaf. This is using Allisons very strong wholemeal which used to produce brilliant loaves.
Anyone else had this problem and/or any thoughts?
We had the same problem. Tried everything suggested here. Eventually discovered it was dodgy yeast. Used Doves yeast and it solved the problem. We tried Canadian flours, dough improver and lemon juice. Nothing worked. Doves yeast solves the problem.
Technical problems with SD254 and SD255!!!!!!
Just for those who have tried everything like me. I discovered that my both breadmakers did not performed well. Sometimes it was not kneaded enough, and it raised not enough. I tried other yeast, other flours, some sugar, less salt, somewhat more water, and sometimes with succes, but that lasted never long. I send them both to Panasonic for examination, but everything was ok, but not in my kitchen. After looking in it for the whole process, it was clear:It turned out the kneading motor does not perform as should, and develops not enough power to continue kneading: After 1 1/2 - 2 years, the capacitor deteriorates , and the panasonic people do not bake a bread to test.... I replaced the cap ( 3µF it should be - the old measured 1,4 µF ), and since then Everything was again ok . And it is indeed a good breadmaker then.
Technical problems with SD254
Like many my machine produced a brick last Thursday 24/09/15. I have long suspected that temperature sensing devices in the machine are not working properly in that these involve very low voltage signals and are easily disrupted by the slightest oxidation. After all it does get very hot inside the machine casing and oxidation on contacts is a possibility. So I took the machine apart and paid particular attention to the little ribbon cable that goes into the white control box. I pulled out this ribbon cable out of its socket and pushed it back in several times. Also did this to the blue 2 pin plug as well. This is not an operation for those not technically inclined and you do need to be competent technically. The result today Sunday was a perfect loaf using identical ingredients to those used on Thursday. So perhaps this is an answer for some.
The contacts on the ribbon cable are actually part of the cable and appear to be chromium plated perhaps in an attempt to avoid oxidation and poor contacts. Usually the answer to perfect contacts is to use gold contacts but there may be a good reason apart from cost as to why Panasonic have not used gold.
Have had dealings in the past with Panasonic and their customer relations are frankly rubbish; pity when their products are so technically superior.
I have only recently got a Panasonic SD2502 (yay eBay!) but have understandably already made about half the programme menu. However when I tried out the sandwich loaf option last night to have some fresh bread for this morning, it came out flat as a pancake and with a lot of flour on the bottom sides. I think part of it is either not having placed the paddle on correctly, or not measuring the liquid as carefully. But having read this article (and having read something about poor quality harvest affecting bread flour quality somewhere) I suddenly realised I had used some Allinson bread flour that I'd found unopened in the cupboard, rather than the Sainsbos own brand stuff. I used a different yeast too. Anyway, thank you because for a minute I was worried it had broken already! I've learned a good lesson nice and early on - I thought the more expensive/fancy flour would mean better results, but I think I'll stick to whatever is recommended by others and works for me.
Thank you! Off to retry the loaf with my usual flour and yeast :)
Thank you to everyone. After years of making beautiful bread with my ancient Panasonic, for months it has been producing bricks. Like others, I tried different flours, yeasts, water proportions, extra yeast and sugar, vitamin C and even bought a new second-hand breadmaker off a friend - I had no real joy, until today when I produced my first beautiful loaf using Richard Aldous's recipe. I think the crucial ingredient is just 8g orange juice - so simple and cheap. And I am so happy!
Thank you Flick for your kind comments. I am glad to hear it is working for you. I have found that if I put the Rapeseed oil in after adding the water the Juice is not required. I have also tried using 20gms of Flora Pro Active instead of the Rapeseed oil when it ran out and it seems to produce a more uniform shape loaf.
It seems to be a technical issues as I've tried every combination, different flours, juice etc and still the loaf doesn't rise. Do Panasonic have an interest in this blog???
Thanks for the advice Robert a Newbury, my partner is an electrical engineer and will try your suggestions. Will post results ....
Flat loaves cured!
My Panasonic 255 is about 3 years old and used to make excellent bread but for over a year I too have suffered with flat loaves for over a year trying all the suggestions (including the lemon juice which made a slight improvement) with out success.
Recently I realised that although the paddle rotated fine to start with as the dough got thicker it struggled to turn and the motor buzzed.
After reading a previous comment describing the same symptoms and a faulty motor start capacitor and being a retired electronics engineer, I dismantled the machine, un-soldered the large 3uF 450 volt capacitor and measured it's value to find it was less than 1uF.
A trip to the Oxford Maplin store and for £3.60 I got a suitable replacement, it wasn't the same dimensions so needed a bit of hole drilling and securing with tie wraps and soldering the wires to the original connections on the board.
Immediately started a rapid 50/50 white/wholemeal loaf and a got a perfect rounded top loaf, the first for over a year!
So if you have the same symptoms and not able to measure the capacitor it's worth changing it any way, you never know it could save you buying a new machine.
I am new to breadmaking and having just purchased my first Panasonic breadmaker hoped for wonderful results. Stores in my area only stocked Allinsons or Hovis so I have been trying with the Hovis wholemeal (granary not available) and all loaves have been dense and not rising. As your post started in 2012 and it is now 2016 with obviously the same problems what is their excuse!!
I am so relieved to have discovered these blogs. Thank you to the Chief Executive for originally posting and all of your hard work and determination to get to the bottom of this. I am now off to try again with lemon juice bottle in hand.
I am gobsmacked!! I threw a perfectly good bread maker that I had used fora long time as bread was not rising. I only use Hovis granary flour as it always gave me bread I liked in the past. I bought a Panasonic last week and after 3 different recipe attempts, again using Hovis granary flour I took Panasonic back to store as I thought it was faulty. I am now using Russell Hobbs bread maker and tonight after first loaf, again using Hovis granary flour came out not risen and lop sided I am glad to read that it seems the Hovis granary flour is the problem not the bread maker. I'm gutted I threw my old bread maker away as I now realise it was not at fault. Will be contacting Hovis tomorrow and am going to have to think of what I can use to get a good granary loaf. I don't like using white flour! Suggestions please ? I used to use 100g Vit C tablet with success but did not have any left so used lemon juice, not effective unfortunately.
I only use Flour from Shipton Mill, you can find them on line and if you read my previous comments you will find the recipe I use and I do not use any Lemon, Orange or any other Juice now and I cant remember when I last had a duff loaf and I make one every other day.
If there were a national award for sheer tenacity, many contributors to these pages would qualify! I have an ageing Panasonic SD253 which I stopped using a few years back. I had been making perfectly acceptable loaves, then inexplicably my bread was coming out pretty flat. I suspected the machine.
Last week, I tried again, but had a similar experience, so I came here to educate myself and stayed to read the whole sad tale.
Two evenings ago, I made a large-size white 'test' loaf. I chose:
1) 450g Lidl's 'Belbake' strong white bread flour, freshly bought, bearing a Red Tractor quality mark and about 11.7% protein.
2) A 7g (approx. 2.5 Tsps) sachet from an 8-sachet pack of Lidl's 'Belbake' own-brand quick yeast, also freshly bought.
3) 2 Tsp of 'Pride' bottled lemon juice, from Tesco, added to the water. It augments the ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) already added to the yeast during manufacture, serving as an improver to strengthen the protein (gluten). Belt and braces!
4) 3 Tbsp Sainsbury's dried milk powder
5) 1½ Tsp table salt
6) 2 Tbsp full-fat butter (Lurpak spreadable actually, i.e. butter churned with a little oil)
7) 1 Tsp sugar.
8) the SD253 on BAKE RAPID, set to mid-brown crust.
9) hand-hot water (50/50 boiling and cold water) as I felt it would get things going, not least because the machine sits in a cold shed outside.
As usual on BAKE RAPID, the ingredients started to churn almost immediately, the Lurpak quickly blending in as the warm water hit it. The resulting loaf rose correctly, and the crumb had an excellent springy structure, was nicely aerated, and made super sandwiches—and today, 24 hours later, lovely crispy toast.
Last night, I made another loaf, this time using not 1 but 2 Tspn sugar, and 3 Tbspn vegetable (i.e. rapeseed) oil in lieu of the butter. The loaf was, once again, a success.
The Lidl flour and yeast, despite their very low prices, seem to be as good as any I have used, with very acceptable flavour and texture. I will try Sainsbury's Canadian Very Strong Bread Flour next time, just for comparison.
Many thanks to all those here who've given me hope, thereby inspiring me to try again.
Thanks for all the comments and helpful feedback to date.
45,000 readers have visited this page since I first wrote it.
Hopefully we've saved more than a few Panasonic bread machines from landfill.
In our home we also use the Lidl own brand flour very successfully.
I have a completely different solution which has not been suggested. My Panasonic machine used to make perfect bread every time, then literally one day started producing flat loaves and bricks like other posters have experienced. I tried all of the suggestions above to get it to work, with little success.
But then I realised, that since I bought the bread machine, the surrounding area in the kitchen had become covered in cookery books, a deep fat fryer , and other kitchen paraphernalia. I thought it was a long shot, but I would move the bread machine into the centre of the kitchen worktop and see if it made any difference.
Hey presto, perfect bread again every time.
I think it is something to do with the airflow around the breadmaker, or underneath the breadmaker, and maybe some problems it gives the thermostat. I don't know, but it really work for me.
Give it a try, it doesn't cost anything.
Steve
Having purchased our first Panasonic Breadmaker almost eight years ago we were somewhat disappointed when it began producing unrisen lumps of dough, cooked at the bottom but not on the top. The dough just didn't 'prove', it would not rise. We jumped through the hoops that Panasonic insist that one must leap through and ran through this 'changing' everything three times. The result was the same. Unleven half baked dough.
Out of patience with but still impressed by the previous performance of the breadmaker we bought another one. It worked beautifully. For fourteen months, then it became as recalcitrant as the first Panasonic Breadmaker, which we had retained, coincidentally.
So we trundled off to the approved repairists and handed over the fourteen month-old unit and twenty five pounds (deposit) and an explanation of what the problem was. Yes, we had jumped through the same hoops three times once again.
Three weeks after depositing the breadmaker with the approved repairists we were informed, "Your breadmaker is ready for collection."
The chap said when asked for an explanation of the problem, "Sniff! There's nuffin wrong wiv it mate. We dun all the checks and ran through the engineers resets, and there is nuffin wrong wiv it. Change the ingredients mate. Nuffin further to pay. Ta-ra!" We trundled off perplexed.
It bakes lovely bread. It works a treat. So we gave them the other one to fix; no point in bunging it, if it might be fixable, eh? Well... it was fixed. Exactly the same as the last one was 'fixed'. And it bakes beautiful bread, Just like it's 'repaired' replacement. [And using old ingredients which we had also retained because we were suspicious of what we were told about there being "nuffin wrong wiv it, mate".]
So, the moral is? One is highly suspicious of this 'nothing wrong with it' explanation. One is even more suspicious that there might be an engineers reset which kicks a confused PCB back into life to wake up the 'Heat during proving' command. But, will Panasonic own up to that... What do you think? It's just too easy to blame the end user.
Further to my other comment, Alan Coldham believes Panasonic dealers/repairers might know of an (otherwise undisclosed) fault in Panasonic bread machines that leads to poor performance but that is reversible using some trick of the trade. He speculates there might be a 'reset' option a repairer can run, before handing back the machine as apparently no-fault-found. Whilst this seems plausible, it does not tally with my experience over many years as a computer engineer in retail. If techies become aware of a known fault, they are usually the first to communicate any 'fix' to their community. As an example, there was the so-called Capacitor Plague, where motherboards failed in large numbers after being equipped with faulty capacitors, as explained here: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague]. The idea there is a secret reset that will 'cure' an ailing bread machine, but that such knowledge has not leaked out beyond the dealerships worldwide, seems highly unlikely, knowing how engineers love to showcase their knowledge to their peers... a cover-up would require a mighty effective conspiracy. This is not to say that ailing capacitors can be ruled out as the cause of some of the reported problems, since at least two contributors here have claimed evidence for that. Does anyone report they are having problems with a previously satisfactory Panasonic but, simultaneously, no problems using a second machine being used with exactly the same ingredients and method (whether Panasonic or not)? Such an A/B test would be very revealing.
Thank you - I've had almost exactly the same problem with Wessex Mill flours (all varieties that I have used for years); they too sent me free replacement bags - some work some don't. But lemon has not worked for me - I'll give it another go.
I have just had the same problem with my last two loaves, using the speciality bake menu using half white, half wholemeal Shipton Mill spelt flour in my Panasonic 2502. I read the post concerning storing the unopened Allisons dried yeast in the kitchen cupboard and not in the fridge, where I do keep the opened tin, but unopened tins I keep in a kitchen cupboard.
For the two failed loaves, I had used a newly opened tin of yeast, but I had had it for a fair while, maybe six months or so but it was still in date, November 2016.
Today I tried again with a new tin of the Allisons yeast but bought this morning, nothing else had changed, just using the freshly bought yeast. The result - one of the best loaves I have made, a lovely even rise just over the top of the tin. Large sigh of relief!
I have learnt various good stuff right here, and I’m sure everyone will get advantage of it.
SJH Used Plant Sales
Is anyone having problems with rye flour and rye setting?
I have tried almost all the other settings and flour combination, no problem at all. Now I have used Dove's rye (white and wholemeal) flour and I cannot get a decent loaf. Too chewy or uncooked due to a mixture of not well mixed flower/excess water or sunken due to excess water. I have tried less water, it just doesn't mix well either, with all the corners left out of the dough...
It is just a shame...
From David
A very interesting set of experiences which I have been through, except the lemon juice. I also get my flour from lidls the most recent being Belbake which made a superb loaf.
However I noticed very recently that there was a build up of baked bread underneath the paddle which was being lifted up. I have removed this with fingers and have baked only once since then,but with perfect results. Can this be relevant in some of these failure s?
Many thanks for all your helpful observations
Thank you!!!
Restored sanity - I use my Panasonic 256 every day and it's never thrown up a dodgy loaf until a couple of weeks ago. Now I know it's the flour, I'm trying the lemon juice trick. Who'd have thought it?
Brilliant blog, thank you!
Amanda
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I've had bricks from my Panasonic for the last three weeks, after three years good service. Found this site and with the help of Lidl flour and yeast, plus a couple of teaspoons of lemon juice, problem solved - never had a loaf (50% strong white/50% wholemeal) rise so high. So it's 'goodbye Allinsons, hello Lidl' for me from now on. Thank you all!
My Panasonic decided to produce nothing but bricks after about August. Loathe to chuck a machine that has previously served us so well
I read the comments on this blog. I went and bought Lidl strong bread flour and yeast this morning and with the addition of two teasps of lemon juice I have made the finest loaf ever.
Thank you everyone for all the research. You have saved us the cost of a new machine.
I am so glad I found this site, i too am producing housebrick quality granary loaves in a Panasonic machine which is less than a year old.
My previous machine retired at 9 years old due to a gubbed element but would only bake white loaves for the last few years in any case.
Initially the new machine made great Granary bread and I was rejoicing, I love Granary bread, I use the term Granary to include Hovis, Allinsons and Duchy flour, they all appeared to work. Then they suddenly stopped, I too tried all the tricks from the troubleshooting pages of the instructions to no avail, nothing really described accurately what was happening to my loaves!
Now I see that a lot of these comments go back to 2013 and further in some cases, my question is, if the suppliers/millers are aware that there is a problem with the quality of the flour, why are they still selling it the way it is? Why are they not doing something to improve it before it goes into the bags?
I will try the lemon juice trick and see if it the solution to my problem and I will report back.
PS "Gubbed" is Scottish vernacular for knackered.
Puddinboots - I think we all share your frustration - if the flour quality is the problem, why hasn't it been fixed? This is why bread making is as much science as art. The quality of the wheat is the issue - not enough gluten. This is affected by the weather. However even the early mass produced bread scientists struggled with the integrity of the ingredients. It took them years to perfect the Chorleywood bread process, and they decided the only flour that would do was Canadian Strong Bread flour. Commercial bread makers use 'flour improvers' to deal with the variable quality of the wheat. Flour producers for the domestic market don't want to start adding 'improvers' it would cost them money and consumers would complain about the ingredients they added. So us home bread makers must add our own flour improvers. In this case lemon juice is the cheapest and most readily available ingredient we can add to do the job. Happy bread making.
I, too, had a period when half my French loafs were bricks. And I, too, replaced my Panasonic and spoke to the technical dept at the flour manufacturer - in my case, I use only Wessex Flour, both French and Cobblers. Both are excellent and the Miller did mention poor harvest quality.
However, I now believe that the real problem was my heavy handed pouring of the water going in last, which occasionally must have mixed the yeast (in first) with the salt too early in the cycle. I now pour the water over a spoon held just above the surface of the flour, deflecting the water sideways, rather than directly down as hitherto.
Since adopting this practice six months ago, I have never had another brick! I give you this for what it's worth.
Most enlightening! We too have suffered (!) with this, but the combination of a bit more yeast and the juice of half a lemon seems to have us well on the way to recovery. Thanks so much. I've never been a fan of blogs but I've enjoyed this one and take back all the bad things I've ever said about people who spend their time blogging. Chief Executive, you're all right with me 😎
Thanks so much! The Mrs has been on at me to get the machine fixed, but last time I used it we got fantastic results. We use Lidl bread flour which used to be excellent, but now suffer the same issues as your hovis loads! I will try the lemon juice trick on my next loaf, and look to source better flour in future ....any recommendations?
James - we're still using the Lidl flour with good results - when combined with the lemon juice trick. Obviously all batches of flour are different, it being a natural product, but the lemon juice will strengthen the gluten strands which is essential in the science of baking a loaf that rises.
Just for the record we have suddenly started experiencing the Hovis granary problem from a newly opened bag in September 2017. Back to Canadian flour only for us for a while now!
3 bad loaves in 3 days. In 4 years have never had this problem. Couple of bags of Allinson strong white expire date May 2018. Using identical ingredient techniques. Bad batch or problem with basic rapid?
Simon - your issue is almost certainly the flour. Try another brand with the lemon juice trick.
Just to confirm that there is definitely another rogue batch (at least) of Hovis Granary out there. I've used it as c50% of my regular mix in my trusty Panasonic 253 successfully for years but suddenly experienced the low gluten problem back in 2012/13 (identified thanks to this very blog!).
So this weekend out of the blue I had a loaf of what my wife calls 'M' bread - collapsed in the middle so the slices make an 'M' (she hates it!). I re-made and it happened again. I then made a loaf using only the strong wholemeal and Canadian super strong white that I always use, with no other changes, and it worked perfectly.
So it was definitely the Hovis Granary that was the problem.
My batch was 'BB JAN 2018 7206 07:54 RL'.
Interestingly neither Sainsburys nor Waitrose sell it any more - perhaps they just aren't prepared to trust a product that let down so many of their customers and whose manufacturer was appalling at owning up to it...
thanks for sharing such a nice blog.
I see this blog ended in 2017. We are currently having this problem in August 2019. Is it likely that the same thing is happening again?
It is nearly always the flour!
Try the Wessex Mill range of flours - I haven't had a brick for years!
Dick Longfield
Anon - 11th August - yes, the problem is the ingredients, not the machine. If it mixes and bakes it is working. The three key components are the flour, the yeast and don't forget to add the missing ingredient - lemon juice. Most likely it is the flour letting you down - insufficient gluten content. Try Canadian Strong bread flour if you can find it (although it is in short spply at Waitrose in August 2019) Sainsbury's own wholemeal bread blour is also reasonable (and is currently available). In our experience Allison's is the worst. Good luck, let us know how you get on.
My post of 22nd February 2016 states that I do not use any juice of any kind. I am still making a Loaf every other day and have not had a failure. The Flour I buy is from Shipton Mill and I purchase 11 x 2.5 kilo bags at a time. This saves the carriage charge and the Bread is supurb, the price excellent and no trips to the shop.
Richard Aldous
Unacceptably low gluten content in your flour has been a recurring theme in this blog. But actually, there is no gluten in a bag of flour! Two proteins are there, however: "Glutenin" (polymeric, comprising multiple polypeptide chains) and "Gliadin" (monomeric, comprising single polypeptide chains). Kneading these together in the presence of water forms proteinous "gluten".
Estimating how much entails making a ball of flour and water dough then manipulating it under a running tap to wash away starch, etc.. Just how you can see in several YouTube videos. In a nutshell, wrap some flour in a J-cloth or similar, hold under a stream of cold water and manipulate it well for several minutes. In the end, the protein will become isolated and you'll have a ball of rubbery material in the cloth not unlike thick chewing gum. Good bread flour contains good-quality gluten that can be stretched out pretty thin. It is the glue that traps the bubbles created by the yeast and raises your bread into a loaf.
As for yeast, it needs to be alive! To maximise the life of dried yeast, store in your freezer. It should remain dormant but viable for at least 2 years after opening. Red Star Yeast recommend an "opened yeast" test:
1. Half fill a one cup measure with fairly warm but not hot water.
2. Add one teaspoonful of sugar.
3. Add two and a quarter teaspoonfuls of dried yeast at room temperature.
4. Mix thoroughly and leave ten minutes in a warm place.
5. Check the yeasty mixture is frothing to form a dome in the measure.
6. Throw away any batch of yeast that fails this test!
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Does anyone have the perfect recipe for a granary loaf using a Panasonic SD 257 machine. There are lots of recipes in the manual but many of them produce a sad looking flat granary loaf. I am using Hovis Granary Bread flour.
I love home made bread and the best results come from my Kenwood bread maker but I would love to be able to use the Panasonic one as well..
The one I made today didn’t rise, it had a crust but a very moist dense inner. Grrrr...
Hello Anon 9th January - your problem is almost certainly the Hovis flour. We used to use this, but had the same problems as you are experiencing. Try another brand if you can find one (avoid Allinsons) but Granary flour is hard to find in supermarkets. Try the wholeweat 5 hours medium loaf setting with the lemon juice trick.
Country Fayre Malted Brown Bread Flour, Organic, Marriage's (1kg)I better than hovis
Now August 2022. Is anyone currently having problems with baking poorly risen bread again.
Our usually excellent Panasonic Breadmaker has recently been producing, not bricks, but not the usual quality risen plain white loaves. Have tried changing the flour (currently using Allinson's) after Aldi have no stock of bread flour.
Changed the yeast and different quantities of lemon juice. Even tried changing the capacitor again which was the definitely the problem a few years ago with a poor rise. Nothing seems to be helping with the current problem.
@simplychick - it's frustrating when this happens. But as I discovered originally if the machine mixes and bakes it's not the machine. So it must be the ingredients. We had a duff spell recently, changed the yeast and that was it, bingo. Currently getting 100% results with 50/50 Lidl wholemeal and Lidl Strong white bread flour and Lidl yeast sachets, and even Lidl sqeezy lemon juice. We also have one of the new shape machines and the recipe calls for the yeast last not first and the order does seem to have an impact on the results. So I suggest change each ingredient in turn, or be bold and change them all and see what happens! Good luck.
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